Sorry to regurgitate some "old light" onto your keyboards folks, but I came across the following link:
http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/0/66cf0523c6217c4b802567cc002f8b0e?OpenDocument
It shows how the WTS was represented by three different observers from three different NGO's at the annual meeting of the Human Rights Commission of the United Nations in May 1999:
1)Association of Jehovah's Witnesses
2)European Association of Jehovah's Witnesses for the Protection of Religious Freedom
3)Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia
What struck me in particular was the fact that apparently JW seems to have done some political lobbying in association with many other religious and/or politically active NGO's.
IMHO this kind of UN involvement seems to go way beyond holding a mere library card.
Could anyone enlighten me as to how this has been explained away by the Brooklyn boys?
Van Gogh
JoinedPosts by Van Gogh
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WTS-UN Human Rights Connection?
by Van Gogh insorry to regurgitate some "old light" onto your keyboards folks, but i came across the following link: .
http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/0/66cf0523c6217c4b802567cc002f8b0e?opendocument .
it shows how the wts was represented by three different observers from three different ngo's at the annual meeting of the human rights commission of the united nations in may 1999: .
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Van Gogh
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The President
by lime05 insince the jehovah's witness organization currently rejects most of the teachings of its founder charles taze russell and since they also reject "judge" joseph franklin rutherford, who succeeded russell as president from 1916 - 1942, how can we be sure that in 25 more years, jehovah's witnesses won't also reject the current president, milton g. henschel (1992 - present), as they did russell and rutherford?
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Van Gogh
We can be pretty sure about one thing:
The bOrg will eventually reject all of its own teachings - except the one on the special GB channel.
That's the whole problem... -
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Anointed seem to think they have special POWERS
by justice for all inever notice this about the so called anointed?
the ones i've met seem to think they have these powers especially with the scriptures and some brothers and sisters treat them as such.
i always thought this was weird and somewhat superstitious.
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Van Gogh
As in: how do the liars know their imitators aren't liars?
Would make a great Talmudic thesis -
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My last meeting
by PoppyR inso last night we had the last book study at our house, next week all the congregations change around and i asked for it to be moved.
so i sat in on it, and afterwards we had a bit of a 'party'.
felt quite emotional really, although i haven't answered for a long time i put my hand up to read a scripture just so i could mark the last time i did this.
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Van Gogh
Poppy,
Congrats with newfound freedom of conscience.
I suddenly couldn't stomach the fading thing any more.
My last meeting was about three weeks ago.
I'm not so sure about God anymore as well though - but somehow it is a huge relief to be free of dogma.
Only questions remain, but the freedom to find some sort of answers for yourself feels immensely comforting - many things seem to fall into place as well and suddenly become clear.
"The elder taking the group,(who I dearly love) said it was discipline and the person had to learn"
I have very dear friends like this as well - unfortunately there is a big divide now.
The schizophrenia continues... -
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Ready for 2005 to be OVER! 2006 resolutions...
by wanderlustguy inthis year has sucked like a hoover for me.
i'm so ready for it to be over...2006 has to be better.
here's my resolutions so far.... get in better shape (something other than round).. spend more time with my kids.. grow the business i'm a partner in.. purchase some property in/near asheville, nc.. how about you?
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Van Gogh
Start smoking
(expensive cigars)
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will someone please pull me out of this funk......or at least come join me
by kittyeatzjdubs ini wish i could just lock myself in my office and sleep this away.
i feel like there's this heavy boulder around my shoulders and it's just pulling me downdowndown...i think it started last night when i tried to play my guitar...but i'm no good at it...you know that feeling where you know how and what you want to be...but you can't b/c you just suck at it...i want to be an accomplished musician singer...but i can't sing and i don't have an ear for music.
i feel like i have no talents...i can't sing, can't play music, can't draw.
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Van Gogh
What you feel IMO is quite normal. I think AlmostAtheist hit it on the head: MOTIVATION and DIRECTION are what is needed. A lot of (ex)jdubs presume these things will be cast upon them/us if we "wait on Jah" - they are (or remain) in a constant waiting mode (for paradise to solve any problems). The fact that many of us have been brought up to think negatively about achievement, sports and college can contribute to a low self esteem. Lack of encouragement from our parent or peers and not being used to setting high standards for ourselves - often even distrusting our ambitions because they are equated with "materialism," can also be aggravating factors.
IMHO, unless you really want children, getting pregnant would indeed be the single worst thing to happen to you at this point in your life. I would think that what you need is a grand plan for the rest of your life to work towards. How would you like to picture yourself in five or ten years time? In theory you can achieve almost anything you want or desire - provided you design a plan that will get you there. The problem however is that this kind of satisfaction in real life stems from serious hard work.
For instance, you could go to COLLEGE and/or develop a specific skill that will make you money and will make you financially independent. This could give you a great deal of self respect. This will involve making a considerable investment in time, effort, money and perseverance in order to reach the stage where you can reap the benefits. But it will pay off in the long run. This can be very challenging and you need to make a definite commitment over the next couple of years.
You would be wise to involve others in this to help you along and encourage you. I bet a lot of us here on the board would be willing to show an interest in your progress and to encourage you along the way. Cut down on TV and internet and do more physical exercise or (group) sport. Set goals and make a schedule to fulfill them - In theory, you can do anything you wish... provided you are willing to invest serious HARD WORK.
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Intimacy
by lazuli inmy ex-bf and i, he's a baptized jw and i'm a study, never had sex during our relationship.
however, we dis have intimacy, meaning that we did everythin else but penetration, i know how bad this sounds, but we really did do anything you could do without there being penetration, so we were very intimate.
i remeber that when we got together in the first place he mentioned to me once that he wouldn't have dated me if i wasn't a virgin.
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Van Gogh
If somebody talks, they cannot officially DF you, because you are not baptized. In that case they could somehow apply some sort of "marking" to you, and could consequently shun you. The WTS-Talmud-rule-book can turn out to be quite complicated in these kinds of situations here, and can be interpreted in many ways to suit any favored party.
The "Clintonian" acts that you suggest took place here are synonymous to frequent straight sex according to the WTS. Even touching breasts can, under some aggravating circumstances, lead to DF (See notes by sir82 somewhere on this forum in the past six weeks or so).
A lot also depends on who comes forward first. If, for instance, the baptized one should come forward first, and this person is "in good standing", and is, for example, a pioneer, or his/her dad is an elder, or he/she has connections, then somebody like that could get away with murder. The other, unbaptized, and therefore more "worldly", and so less "spiritual" outsider, can in such a scenario be portrayed as someone who led the other party on and was a bad influence. On the other hand, if the unbaptized "Monica Lewinsky" party goes to confession first, she could, if playing her cards exactly right, and depending on the composition of the judicial committee, inflict a lot of damage to the other one.
One of the main problems in these kinds of cases is that, unless pictures or videos were made, there is no concrete evidence as to the accuracy of the testimonies and accusations involved. This can, and often does, result in denial of facts or lying on the part of the accused, especially if such accused party feels him/her-self under attack and betrayed out of the blue. Whoever can conjure up the most sympathy could be believed, and could win.
A complicating factor is often that a judicial committee is not focused on restoring injustice, spiritual aid to, or protection of a weak party, or finding out the facts, but is geared towards damage control for the organization and not bringing things out in the open. The judicial process is held "in camera," and is a secret session behind closed doors. In the process, the judicial body of elders can never be impartial because they are often involved socially with the parties involved, or have acted as their confidential pastors towards them in the past, therefore also knowing their past "criminal record," and as such are liable to be biased beyond the case under consideration. Furthermore, the Judicial Committee acts in the incompatible roles of prosecutor, judge, jury, executioner and parole officer - all in one. This has had, and is still having, grave consequences for whoever is the vulnerable party, for it has led to pedophilia and sexual abuse of minors to go unchecked for years. This way, it is easy - and probably only a natural consequence - for elders to cover for each other.
Unfortunately, under these circumstances, I would advise you to under any circumstance refrain from any kind of statement whatever. Acting and playing dumb, and yes, unfortunately stooping to the level of bending the facts and truth towards protecting your own interests, are the only viable defense you will ever have under this system (that is to say, as long as you do not go to confession to suit your own peace of conscience or stoop down to the level of trying to get back at the other party).
If, in any case you decide you want get baptized, it could sometimes be more or less expected of you to beforehand confess anything worthwhile. If you don't, you might under certain circumstances be liable to future problems over this. If, however, you do not make this kind of confession, your JW career will already have started with a compromise/lie all of your own. Besides, this guy could start feeling guilty about what transpired at ANY time in the future, for example when he gets another girlfriend with loose lips that wants to get back at him, or when he wants to clean his slate before getting married. This could potentially be a ticking time bomb for you.
As to your own situation, what strikes me is that you have had a relationship with a baptized guy who A) wants a virgin, while B) deflowering you according to his own law, while C)this guy must realize that he is liable to being DF'd for what he committed, but seems to have no problem with this. He has had his way with you, and gets rid of you without any problem. To me, this sound to double standards all the way around. It is just a perfect illustration of how he has been - and you might in future be - gradually maneuvered into a tricky, muddy, self-serving double-standard matrix, whatever good intentions one might set out with.
Therefore, IMHO, you would be wise to investigate the moral and religious origins of where this kind of double-standard mindset that every JW is forced into springs from, and to investigate the moral authority of an organization that maintains a harmful religious legal system.
The outcome might be the solution to your dilemma...
Take care,
Theo Vincent -
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How much written in this Forum can be believed?
by Spectrum ini want to turn this forum on its head for this thread.
i'm here on this forum to find as many truths as is possible relating to jwism.
i'm not really here to stick the boot in although once in a while my emotions might get the better of me.
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Van Gogh
Welcome to the board Rooster!
(BTW, you look great for your age!)
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How much written in this Forum can be believed?
by Spectrum ini want to turn this forum on its head for this thread.
i'm here on this forum to find as many truths as is possible relating to jwism.
i'm not really here to stick the boot in although once in a while my emotions might get the better of me.
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Van Gogh
This is certainly an interesting subject. I have always wondered about that myself as well.
I have been in the organization all my life and have certainly met many, many great and sincere people/Christians. Most of the members do retain a great amount of innate decency and common sense. Most members will trail along content and happy for years, and will be able to build their lives around this system, like people will around any human social system. But when things (people/families) fall out of line - fall into disgrace - start asking awkward questions - that is when people start to get hurt big time.
The organization isn't called the bOrg for nothing. The machine has left a trail of destruction and has destroyed many lives under the banner of love and truth. Unsuspecting weak ones who feel themselves protected by it, from time to time turn out to be ill prepared for its ugly consequences. They are the victims of it. They often tend to disappear out of sight as well and are shamed. "Spiritually weak ones are thus sifted".
A simple and verifiable example might well be the Malawi account from Ray Franz's Crisis of Conscience: many poor Africans were beaten, killed and raped as the "collateral damage" of a machine, yet this was considered to be a fair and reasonable price to pay - the account is liable to make you want to vomit. Yet the decisions involved were made by respected man in a calm and composed manner, with an outward appearance of moral authority.
It also reminds me of mechanisms observed in Nazi Germany. The famous philosopher Hannah Arendt wrote about these workings of evil and the paradoxes involved. Daniel Jonah Goldhagen also wrote about it in his "Hitler's Willing Executioners": How could German citizens of what could before 1870 be described as merely a "Kulturnation" - a nation unified only by culture - be party to such despicable consequences. During the Second World War, before the end of 1944, Bavarians lived decent, happy, loving, and proper village family lives. The Dutch people were opposed to the German invaders. But in the Netherlands for example, 110.000 Jews were quietly carted off to a horrible death, yet daily life went on as usual. I do not intend to judge here - if anyone dared to oppose, they were liable to the same fate. The point I'm trying to make is that everyday life went on as usual. The outward appearance of everyday life seemed normal under the circumstances.
In no way would I want to equate the WTS with the NSDAP. But it could serve to illustrate the evil, dehumanizing and damaging potential that can result from the greater good of an organization-machine that claims moral truth.
My childhood story could probably rank quite high on the "JW horror story" index. It involved suicide, death, alienation, utter despair, institutionalization and dehumanization. Yet my dad had been a respectable Presiding Overseer and my mother had been a respectable pioneer for many years during the poverty stricken years of the fifties. I have personally experienced how they were consumed by zealously serving in a religion that was able to make them sincerely believe that they would never die, yet, it turned out they were devoured by a machine that was able to contribute to their premature deaths. I have personally experienced the mechanism of keeping things behind closed doors - of keeping things quiet. The funny thing is that I was always defending the organization despite all this, and putting the blame fully on my parents. Only recently has the house of cards come tumbling down for me - and have things consequently begun falling in place. Only when I found out that the truth turned out to be a lie (inch measurements in a pyramid tunnel to justify calculating 1914 and the end of the world...?) was it that my perspective on what transpired was turned upside down. This organization tends to mess some of us up pretty badly
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Why would a current JW choose to be rude and offensive?
by AlmostAtheist ini've recently had lengthy pm discussions with a person claiming to be a current jw.
this person has been above the standard level of arrogant for a jw, raising conceit to practically a defining characteristic.
you almost expect that when you're dealing with a member of the "elite".. but he goes beyond it.
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Van Gogh
IMO, M.J. hit the nail on the head: of course it is not a Christian trait - it is a cult mentality! "Cult" and "brainwashed" sound scary, but that is exactly what we are talking about here.
I think Abaddon also made a great and simple observation here: jdubs feel "misunderstood" most of the time. They are full of suppressed anger because of it.
I always thought that ARROGANCE was (and still is) one of the main characteristics of WTS company culture. It tends to tricle down to some of the other Chosen.